Blessings be bestowed upon us.
I was told by a German person on this very site that they’d never go right wing again because of a unique type of centrism in the country that’s hugely popular and that my tiny American brain couldn’t comprehend. Oh well, guess that’s just another common centrist L.
in fairness, Germany’s right-wing CSU/CDU could just as easily form a coalition with AFD. It is unique that they’re still willing to stand by their principles and work to cut AFD out of the government, going as far as threatening a ban. The American Republican Party jumped into bed with the fascist Tea Party immediately, without hesitation, and rode the Trump train.
I still don’t expect the new centrist coalition to materially address the underlying economic concerns that are driving AFD support, and it seems likely that they’ll be too big to ignore by the next election. A future centrist L, if you were.
To be fair, Germany is still far better off than the US or some other European countries. In the national election that just happened, the far right party won about 20% of the votes and the (traditionally) centre-right party won while moving further to the right. That said they’re still about as far right as the Democrats in the US.
It’s just that Germans are on alert about the rise of fascism and are raising the alarm bells now, before the fascist actually take over control.
Whoever told you that was the one with the tiny brain. This is fucking scary and we have had warning signs for decades. /a German
“Centrists stand for the status quo, they would never change for the worse.”
“What if the worse is the status quo and normalized with decades of propaganda and brainwashing?”
“That could never happen!”
Average centrist L.
I don’t want to start a war or anything but as someone from neither the USA or Europe, Europeans online often come across as even more exceptionalist than Americans, despite the reputation to the contrary. Because, at least in leftish or liberal spaces, no one is more ready to shit on and call out the USA than Americans. And I don’t mean they’re anti-American or whatever, they just want their country to be better, so they call out all the shit.
Europeans on the other hand often seem more proud and / or defensive about their countries. Maybe they speak openly in their own country specific communities but I don’t get the sense that they’re as open and friendly to outside input or criticism as the Americans are.
The way I see it, we’re all hooked onto the same stream of memes and billionaire owned news sources everywhere across the world. So thinking we’re immune to being overtaken by dangerous alt right nonsense and ignoring all the obvious signs would be a very stupid move, wherever you are. If they’re not taking this seriously, they’re doing exactly what the Americans did and have done since 2016.
I have no idea how this can be possible, but europeans are proud of their roots AND want their countries to be better. And there are defensive people AND people openly shitting on their countries.
As if they see both sides of the coin. Or! OR it depends who you talk to!
I am getting a feeling that countries are more than a single person. And Europe, might be more than one country. Just like China has provinces/states. And USA.
Yeah that’s fair enough and I’m definitely generalizing. It’s just the general sum of my personal observations over the years. And it could easily be just seeing the wrong conversations in the wrong places or whatever. To be fair, you seem to hear about US issues a lot more than European issues on the net in general anyway.
Centrism is just seeing an elephant about to step on a mouse and trying to make a compromise.
Just cause usa is fucked up completely doesn’t mean every other country is. left, centrist and right in most of europe would be categorized as “socialist terrorist group” in the usa.
Name a three countries that aren’t fucked.
Switzerland, Finland, Australia.
Friendlyjordies house getting fire bombed for going after politician would tell me that Australia is fucked.
Lmao you think Finland is doing well?
I get it, everythin is bad cause your standard for success is impossibly high. Congrats you won internet argument and are most humanitarian or whatever.
My standards for success are simply not having fascists in the government. And my point is, even though we definitely are doing better, fascism is on rise everywhere. What happens in America never stays in America, and in the end, we all get fucked even if some get more fucked than others. Have a good day.
Fascism is really good for the rich to get richer
Especially the AfDs Neo-Liberal fascism ^^
Wouldn’t want anything bad to happen to our beloved overlords. 💰OTL
“At least we’re not as racist as the US!”
“…yet.”
But we are working on yourself to catch up with the US.
Germany was never truly de-Nazified.
While this is absolutely true, I dont think, that this is the cause of the current uprise of facism.
Fascism is generally Capitalism’s immune system as it declines, meant to violently root out leftist opposition as workers begin to protest their conditions.
I’m stealing that analogy, thank you very much.
I’d generalize it a bit to say, fascism is the immune system of any system built on bad principles that’s collapsing under the weight of its own internal contradictions. The obvious decay then creates a space psychos and grifters to pose as faux saviors and gain power by scamming people into something they pretend is a solution but is actually a death cult.
I think that’s unique analysis, for sure, but I’d keep it to Capitalism. Historical movements recognized as fascist, such as Italian Fascism and Nazi Germany, arose specifically in decaying Capitalist economies where a millitant working class was growing, and the fascists slaughteted the Communists and Socialists. I recommend reading the first chapter of Blackshirts and Reds (though the whole book is fantastic).
This is absolutely true
Just like in russia, since 90s where turbo capitalism took over.
Quick! Avert eyes! Deploy pivot arguments! Dont ever discuss this!
Seeing as some left to Argentina or were recruited by the US and the USSR for NASA, no they never were de-Nazified, they just wiped the blood off their name tags.
Yep, prominent Nazis were even given leadership of NATO, such as Adolf Heusinger. The Soviets ended up being far harsher to the Nazis, hence why so many fled to Latin America to get away. Makes sense, considering the absolute devastation the Nazis wrought on the Soviets and the 20 million Soviet lives the Nazis took, and how comparatively little the US saw, as the 2 major powers emerging from World War II.
“No you can’t bring up that NATO had actual Nazis with blood on their hands as leaders! Especially ones that tried to make a new Waffen-SS in the 50s! That’s unfair!”
Ah yes. The fallacy that europe rejects all media pointing to nazis being reintegrated into western structures.
Completely niche idea that never seeped into the pop culture. The evil Nazi living in the west.
Westerners just stick fingers into their ears and shout lalala each time they see this.
Keep jerking yourself off with these arguments.
Yep, people love to reflexively defend NATO, as it’s very effectively pitched as merely a “defensive alliance” when it has always served as a coercive arm for the US to pressure its geopolitical adversaries, especially the Soviets, hence why they worked with the most effective anticommunists, the Nazis. If you don’t play along with NATO, then they pull Operation Gladio on you.
And russian bots love to attack NATO because it prevents their dictator putin from conquering all previous USSR territories that became sovereign nations.
NATO wouldn’t be necessary if Russia stopped invading other countries. So you can blame putin for that.
That’s the thing: you can’t kill an idea by killing the man. The idea only dies with good education, proper social support, social cohesion and good (economic) prospects for the future. Same goes for Hamas IMO: try to kill as many soldiers as you can, the collateral damage among civilians breeds only the next soldier in line
When are you moving to russia? It is one of the most denazified countries in the world right now, after all.
Surely they don’t have a Neo-Nazi party office right now, right? No party called the AfD that does that?
Surely.
Yes. The exact same that cozies up to russia and praises United Russia politics.
The same one.
Avert your eyes to all evidence of taking russian blood money as well.
Deploy another argument!
So AfD is a good party that isn’t practicing the xenophobic and hateful policies of Neo-Nazis? Musk doesn’t love them?
It is neo nazi party.
So is United russia.
Trump and Musk love both.
Just like AFD loves russia.
Once upon a time, I told a German that if their country goes fascist, we won’t spare them a second time. That was wrong and naive of me to say, but not too far off. There won’t be a rebuilding if that happens.
Only problem is that the entire worlds governments are going fascist. There won’t be anyone with enough power to fight them.
There are more fucking neo-Nazis in the USA than in Germany. The shit AfD voters come from the Oklahoma and Mississippi of Germany, Thuringia and Saxony.
Definitely not true. It sounds like you are German and if so it is pretty sad how little you keep up with your own election even though it happened just a few days ago. There are more AfD voters in eastern Germany but most Bundesländer have >18% AfD votes.
People tend to forget that Hitlers NSDAP only needed 18% in 1930 and a rigged election in 1933 to completely take over the country.
Coping doesnt get us anywhere. Its not always “the others” that vote far-right. Its the whole country, the educated just as well as the uneducated, the poor and the rich. Almost everyone has family members or friends that vote far-right and we need to talk to them, try to understand their motives and make them understand that AfD wants to make everything they fear 10 times worse.Yeah, sorry, but that is like looking at the map in 1930 from these ones and saying “the NSDAP voters come from East Prussia only, don’t complain about the Nazis in Germany!”
Is that per capita?
Man, the size of brains of people calling someone racist just because they vote right, completely unaware of their own contribution in this matter. Guess, anyone who doesn’t vote right is antifa
Exactly. Just because they say the same stuff, want the same changes and behave the same way as racists, doesnt mean theyre racists!
Being anti-fascist is a good thing.
Sadly true. Fuck the CDU and AfD. Nazi helpers and Nazis.
SPD and Grüne are helping the rise of fascism too even if it’s not on purpose. Die Linke are the only ones in parliament actually working against it.
Wanting to leave NATO, withholding weapons from Ukraine and talking to Putin isn’t exactly “working against” fascism. That’s very much the Neville Chamberlain approach … but even he came to his sense after the full scale invasion started. Can’t say the same for die Linke.
That’s very much the Neville Chamberlain approach …
That’s such revisionist history. Chamberlain wasn’t appeasing Germany, he was aligning with Germany against Communist Russia.
He wasn’t surrendering, he was allying with fascism.
Source?
That seems even more revisionist. If anything I’d have expected it from Winston “I believe in Aryan race science” Churchill.
Chamberlain was buying time for rearmament. It wasn’t actually necessary and it was, in fact, pretty fucking stupid because Germany was rearming faster than France and Britain put together, and his betrayal of Czechoslovakia with their fortified border was even more galling in face of it, but the idea wasn’t to ally with Germany as far as I’ve seen anyone claim.
The British spent the entire 1930s claiming that Britain and Nazi Germany will be a bulwark against communism and signed three pacts with Hitler which were all directly against the Soviet Union: the Four Powers Pact meant to exclude and isolate the Soviets, the Naval Agreement meant Germany could have a navy up 35% of the British navy meaning it wouldn’t threaten British empire but every country on the Baltic sea… i.e. the Soviet Union, and finally the Munich Betrayal which was understood to be a gesture of a “free hand” (British diplomat’s words not mine) for Hitler to go east.
In spite of these difficulties Lord Halifax and other members of the British Government were fully aware that the Fuhrer had not only achieved a great deal inside Germany herself, but that, by destroying Communism in his country, he had barred its road to Western Europe, and that Germany therefore could rightly be regarded as a bulwark of the West against Bolshevism
In spite of these difficulties Lord Halifax recognized that the Chancellor had not only performed great services in Germany, but also, as he would no doubt feel, had been able by preventing the entry of Communism into his own country, to bar Its passage further West. The Prime Minister held the view that it should be possible to find a solution of out differences by an open exchange of views
When the Soviets liberated Germany they were able to get a huge cache of British diplomatic documents. The Soviets released the above book and Documents And Materials Relating To The Eve Of The Second World War Vol. 2 full to the brim of diplomats praising Nazi Germany as a twin pillar alongside Britain stopping communism.
NATO is a fascist organisation.
You Germs should know that since they incorporated plenty nazis in the organisation.https://www.dispropaganda.com/single-post/2019/04/04/natos-secret-nazi-past
So did the warsaw packt and russia today even has them lead armys again. Your point?
While not fully denazifying west germany didnt hide their identities and they were out right critisised. Especially when a former office nazi got elected chanclor (Kurt Kissinger). He even got hit and boohed in public. Behind the iron curtain they outright hid the nazis. Hired SS and Gestapo for the Stasi (unlike the west).
I am comparing it because i know thats where you are going with your argument
While the Warhaw pact did have their own limited project paperclip it is a fact it was the west that fully incorporated the nazis into their regime.
The point being they both were anti-communist.
The west also helped escape 1000’s of the worst SS nazi warcriminals (ukranians) and relocated them to Canada.
What was their use?
There is zero equivalence and you can’t find more than some cherrypicked examples.
To the Russians some could be used but were their enemies, unlike the west where they had plenty of fascist sympathisers in Europe or N America.
https://ebeggin.substack.com/p/ratlines-nato-and-the-fourth-reich“and russia today even has them lead armys again”
LOL is that your claim? Let me say it for you, Ill cherrypick Dimitry Utkin for you bcs because i know where you are going with your argument. A guy from a private militia who is in no way part of the Russian army, as events later made abundantly clear.
You can find individual nazis in almost every country.
Guess who those Russian nazis are fighting for?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/03/04/russian-neo-nazi-hooligan-who-led-anti-putin-militia-across/Ukraine has multible openly fascist batalions like Azov, Sich, Tornado and plenty more.
Where WW2 warcriminals are honored, etc…And let’s not forget how the west now whitewashes the horrible Navalny, who organised the Russian marches before they were forbidden, a racist making videos of him shooting muslims that he called cockroaches.
A disgusting criminal sold by the west as some brave hero fighting for democracy.
As riculous as saying Azov are totally not nazis anymore bcs they changed their logo.
If only Hitler would’ve done something to his swastika, he could’ve been a brave anti-commie fighter hero.You haven’t got a leg to stand on.
Without NATO, we’re going back into the age of territorial conquests and nationalist revenge campaigns. Russia and China aren’t the only countries where this crap is normalized (see Hungary - lot of my fellow Hungarians thinks Slovaks are just Hungarians forced to take up a Slavic language, and in reality they’re just a lost tribe of Magyars called “the Tóths”).
NATO is territorial conquest by the US.
Europe are just vasals.Name one agressive expansion of territory by nato.
And no. The former occupied eastern europe countrys joining nato is not military expansion. They wanted to join and are still indipendent in everything they do
What do you consider 'expansion of territory '?
That is an outdated concept.
The US has used NATO to attack and control other countries without ‘expansion’. That would be to obvious colonialism. They “intervene” (mass murder and destroy the brow people countries) then install their puppet like in Afghanistan.
They use more sneaky regime change tactics in Europe.
Ukraine was a good example, with the Nuland-Pyatt call telling them who should be president. (And “fuck the EU” OC)
in Georgia they sure tried but failed.
They are ‘bodybags’ combined with NATO weapons as Soros said in '93 explaining how NATO could destroy Russia (so peaceful). And no, there is no context.
But if they have to they blatantly bomb cities and an embassy like Yugoslavia.
The US blew up our Nordstream pipeline forcing us to buy their expensive gas and destroying our economy.
Not one peep from our bootlicking EU leaders.
That sure sounds like we’re independent.
And now the poodles complain they don’t get respect? LOL
NATO is liberal and that comes with all of the problems of liberals but in what ways has it functioned as a fascist organisation?
This is another example of Schrödinger’s NATO, where actions perpetrated by the USA is blamed on the entire organisation, yet NATO is a symbol of Western imperialism.
Which is it? If all of NATO but the USA want one thing, and the USA overthrows your government, is it NATO’s fault or rather the USA’s? Are tankies blaming Iraq on NATO too?
" if all of NATO but the USA want one thing"
What are you talking about.
NATO IS the USA, they decide and nobody else.
The vasals will pay for it, provide assistance and get to take care of the millions of refugees caused by it while the US plunders the poor victim of the day’s oil and resources.
If you don’t get that then it’s hopeless.
Don’t care, I’d rather live under the neolib European governments any day than a fascist Russian shithole. It’s not even a difficult choice. It’s not like there’s some leftist utopia as an alternative. The neolibs don’t murder gay people and don’t decriminalize violence against women as a state policy.
The neolibs don’t murder gay people and don’t decriminalize violence against women as a state policy. LOL where do you get your news from?
That’s the fascist Banderites you support.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/03/ukraine-activists-at-womens-solidarity-event-must-be-protected-from-attacks/Don’t try to deflect, you’re fine with Russia murdering gay people.
Weak.
You’re deflecting when called out on your BS, prove your “Russia murdering gay people” lies
Isn’t Amnesty an evil neoliberal org? Or are you a weird kind of tankie that doesn’t really have issue with it?
Regardless of that, it’s just like saying “Palestine deserved it” because Hamas and radical Islam.
I’m not going to react, your nonsense from your response says enough.
I’ll take government failures to control their pigs over actually siccing the murder pigs on the protestors.
I’m sure you can post proof of the government murdering womens marches, let’s see it
Ok Tankie.
shouldn’t you be beating up anti-genocide protesters while doing the Musk salute?
A tankie on .world? Funny
We’re having all the fun ridiculing all the fash and the lib enablers.
Bold statement. Do you have any examples? I would disagree, but maybe I just don’t quite understand what you meant.
Not on purpose?
That Baerbock is a horrible warmonger
Did they make a coalition with the new nazi party?
Even if they don´t officially, they might just push through all the right wing policies with the votes of AfD.
The next weeks and months will show.
