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Ladybird is certainly interesting to watch, it’s improving quite quickly.
I know people on here hate it because of one (admittedly not at all nice) gender issue in the codes comments but like… seriously?
I know people on here hate it because of one (admittedly not at all nice) gender issue in the codes comments but like… seriously?
I actually recently had a discussion about this very issue and came to see it as a case of poor communication, rather than anything mean-spirited on the devs’ part.
Why is ladybird chaotic good when it’s not even out yet
Neither is Servo.
Chaotic good because it’s an entire (almost functional) engine built from scratch, and without any corporate backing.
I’m not sure I have a lot of faith in Servo but we are in need of anything better than Gecko. Ladybird is the new one on the block and we will see if it goes anywhere. I like that Ladybird it’s own web browser.
Same cause nowadays you have to rely on a for profit company for your browser engine.
I don’t have any issue as long as there are options and the company isn’t actively hostile.
true, if it was a company like suse,redhat who was for-profit and had a good browser engine then sure if its like google then maybe but for-profit companies are known to be problematic.
I think the key thing is to have checks and balances and or incentives so that a browser doesn’t become just a tool to sell stuff. For instance, I hear the Mullvad browser is pretty good. It isn’t independent for obvious reasons but the idea still applies.
SuSE is problematic? As far as I know they released their system administration tools as open source without ever needing to, didn’t they? They’re for profit but seem to drive their profits on services rather selling software, as a good open source denizen. What am I missing?
It’s been said before, but Ladybird (and their OS) are made by someone who’s two steps away from having a glorious TempleOS style mental collapse, so I will personally fight in the Mozilla trenches
EDIT: And Goanna/Palemoon and their lead dev is an absolute dumpster fire, the code is a horror shitshow because the lead devs wants to die in a holy war against… Multiprocess paradigm in software design
Look, anything except Firefox and Chrome are made by highly eccentric idiots, so I just keep to FFX
It’s been said before, but Ladybird (and their OS) are made by someone who’s two steps away from having a glorious TempleOS style mental collapse, so I will personally fight in the Mozilla trenches.
Info on this? He seems pretty reasonable from what I’ve seen of him.
Would be a lot easier for me to show you the Palemoon idiocy as I’m not involved with Ladybird much, but the lead dev is basically one of those people who hide behind “freezepeach!!!1!” magical shield. Since I’m not involved with it much, you’d have more success with other people in thread. Sorry :(
So your entire spiel is based on one interaction, extrapolated by… what, vibes? Feelings? Aren’t we supposed to be the objective and rational ones?
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Do you mean on Palemoon?
EDIT: The technical flaws I mentioned are from Palemoon NOT ladybird. As I said, I’m not involved in that and I’m only saying what I’ve heard through the years. I’ve actually interacted through many years with PM/Goanna and I can talk much more strongly on that.
Nevermind, I misread it and thought you called the code of Ladybird stupid.
Webkit as well?
Oh yeah, that’s a thing
Webkit browsers never really worked too well for me so IDK YMMV
Where’s KHTML? The O.G. GOAT.
Well that’s WebKit now
Why is QtWebEngine considered evil?
It has much less features than Gecko or Blink
I guess thats a shame, but not evil
It’s effectively Chromium.
It’s the other way around. KHTML begat WebKit and Blink, then we got QtWeb.
Wdym chromium is open-source
Blink has the dominant market share, though, and by a long way. It’s almost a monoculture.
Gecko has almost as big share
Isn’t it chrome based?
I didn’t know that
Both Blink and Gecko are equally good. Others suck
I’m gonna need some names because I only recognize like, two.
Going from lawful to chaotic, good to evil, we have:
- Gecko (Firefox, Seamonkey, and derivatives)
- Servo
- Libweb (Ladybird)
- Links2 (as well as ELinks and other forks)
- WebKit (used in a lot of stuff, namely Safari and GNOME Web)
- Goanna (Pale Moon and Basilisk)
- QtWebEngine (Konqueror, Falkon, and qutebrowser)
- Blink (Chromium, Brave, and derivatives)
- Trident (Internet Explorer, old versions of Maxthon, old versions of Avant, and any homemade browser created with Visual Studio).
Where does Dillon fit into this?
Its got cookies disabled by default, no support for JavaScript, and only partial support for CSS. Just as god intended.
Same box as Links, I think; or maybe the same box as Servo or Ladybird would fit better…
(until they get a new lead dev, Ladybird is definitely not any type of “Good”)
100%, this is either uninformed or some apologia
What’s going on? I’ve seen this new browser engine referenced recently a decent bit but I have no info beyond ‘it’s new and exists’.
the lead dev is a freeze peach absolutist. he’s said some ignorant shit about trans people and when people said “hey, let’s adjust this language” he was like “let’s not get political”
That’s unfortunate :(
Is this really the hill you want to die on and rather have a Chromium monopoly?
Yes, basic respect for people is far more important than any web browser
the ladybird dev wants to work with people who want me dead. so. yeah, fuck him. mozilla ain’t great, but they’re the least dangerous engine builders right now. servo would be a better engine for us to rally around, but everyone would rather talk about the less mature, more fascist accepting, project.
nazis are bad. that’s the hill i’m willing to die on. this is bigger than a browser engine.
Mozilla has existed for over 20 years and Chromium still has a monopoly.
(The engine itself is fine though)
Usually a Firefox guy but gonna give GNOME web an install for shiggles since I remember safari being fun to play with back in my teenage “hacker” days.
Huh, I didn’t know MSHTML as used in IE was also called Trident. I thought Trident was specifically early Edge before they switched to Blink.
The Edge engine before Blink was called “EdgeHTML”.
Also a quick cliff notes on what each is would be greatly appreciated
I only recognize the Chromium icon…
These are browser engines, or at least software for rendering HTML but not necessarily the actual browser. I don’t know them all, but top left, Gecko, is the engine for Mozilla, center is Web Kit for Safari, bottom center is Chromium for Chrome, Brave, Edge, etc., and bottom right is Trident, the old engine for Microsoft Internet Explorer.
links2 is middle right: it turns a terminal into a web browser
what’s the difference between the engine and the browser itself? is it similar to the Linux kernel vs the Debian user space?
The engine makes it so HTML, CSS, JavaScript etc. are downloaded and turned into pixels you can look at. The browser embeds an engine for that purpose, but then also has a URL bar, tabs, bookmarks, a history feature and so on.
Pretty much.
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These are browser engines, or at least software for rendering HTML but not necessarily the actual browser.
That’s why this post makes no sense. There’s no “evil” rendering engine. They should be judged by technical parameters.
khtml deserves to be in the gift to humanity category
chaotic good? ladybird? the browser by devs that refuse to use your pronouns?
People are losing their shit, calling for boycotts, and throwing around accusations of transphobia over comments in the source code and a single line of documentation? Seriously? And brigading the developer three years after the fact‽ I was ready to write off Ladybird, but damn, this was taken way out of proportion.
I’m all in for equal treatment, but people need to get a perspective. Such an extreme reaction will ultimately hurt the cause they’re trying to advocate for. Getting bent out of shape and publicly brigading something for every perceived slight, every time someone’s feelings are hurt, or can’t get their way, will get them – and the demographic or movement they represent – labelled as undesirable.
Brigading was definitely not a justified act. That was wrong and extreme, and shouldn’t have been done. However, this still doesn’t excuse the closing reply to the PR.
People are losing their shit … over comments in the source code and a single line of documentation?
This is quite ironic, considering the first person in the PR seems to be the person who closed the issue.
I’ve checked out the PR, and it does look bad. But I’d like to see a justification. The comment seems blatantly transphobic/misogynistic. Seems like you’re saying that my understanding is extreme. How could yours be refuted?
Brigading was clearly not justified, but as per my apparently extreme opinions, so isn’t the original reply?
This is why I hate the FOSS community. Everyone freaks out and cries wolf the second a platform doesn’t share their political opinion, even if it’s completely irrelevant to privacy or FOSS.
Personally, I’d want my software to value basic human decency, no matter how good the code is. If the developer lashes out at an inclusive change in a single line of documentation, I’m not using that browser even if it could solve my taxes.
This is just my take though, and if you want to use the browser, then go for it.
Where do you draw the line though? I feel like that’s a slippery slope.
I don’t think performative politics is a FOSS community problem. It’s more of an whole Internet problem.
It’s really bad on lemmy and reddit.
Reddit has much bigger problems, like unfair moderation, and a lot of creepy people
Foss certainly aligns better with left-wing philosophies, i don’t think far-right need to be widely accepted in these communities
let me provide you an analogy to what you’re saying.
“The US appeals to right wing philosophies so the left doesn’t need to be accepted”
what do you think?
Just like what a rightist would say. Also 2 “people” downvoting my comment is wild
not sure how exactly I’m losing my shit? I posted a single link, and let people decide for themselves, if your fine with supporting sexist people then nobody is stopping you.
and personally I don’t care if you think I’m hurting my cause, people who get this butthurt over some simple words and basic respect, simply are not the kind of people who I want to be around anyways.
I dont really want to ruin your mood but when hundreds of people are working on a project, there will be always individuals that are not so nice and go personal on others
I worded that poorly. The “you” was plural (I want the singular “thou” back) and meant to refer to the people who are losing their shit, not any one individual.
(edit) I also just want to point out that accusing me of being a sexist sympathizer and two hours later posting this shit is real funny.
Should have said “yous guyses”
+it is basically unusable yet
Old news - fix is already in production Proof
Please check your sources :)
The fact that someone else fixed the issue doesn’t really excuse the absolutely unacceptable original response to a very reasonable request.
I’m much more interested in seeing an apology, or any sort of indication that the dev understands how disrespectful they were.
Oh what the fuck, dev came off like a fucking ass to a minor suggestion.
Lmao, a weird choice of a hill to die on. Although, given I’ve seen ppl refer to a user account as “he” exactly 0 times before that, I suspect the dev may speak smth like French natively, where everything is either male or female.
That said, i’d rather use “it” instead of “they”, given an account (and anon one at that) is not a person.
I’m fairly certain the main dev is swedish
Huh, checked out their noun genders, and those are quite interesting: 2 genders, but common and neuter instead of masculine and feminine. So out goes that theory
Imagine explaining gendering to a person used to ise a language where it isn’t existing 🤔 of course, it seems unnecessary for that person
Or have I understood that wrong?
Hungarian language for example is completly genderless. 2 pronouns are used: ő (person, more intelligent animals), ez/az (depending on the first letter) (objects, less intelligent animals)
🤯this is awesome
Not exactly. In English, stuff that’s not a person is of neutral gender, i.e. just “it” (unless the speaker has an affection towards it, then it’s usually a “she”). In other languages stuff also has “genders”, like “la chambre” (the French* for “a room”) is a “she”.
So, my initial guess was that the dev natively speaks some language, where a user is a “he”, and ppl don’t have a concept of a neutral gender. But in case of Swedish there are 2 variants of “it” for things, so it seems incorrect.
* I’m using French instead of, for example, Russian here due to it not having a neutral gender, while Russian has “it” and something akin to “they” (like “задира”, the Russian for a bully). Although, I may be wrong here, since I’ve started learning French quite recently, and may’ve missed smth.
Thank you very much for explaining 😃 I understand it now.
Foss community is so insufferable and toxic
Not always. In fact, 90% of it is mostly nice
can you be more specific about what part of the community is toxic?
Like the comment I replied to. I understand calling people out but that is such an irrelevant topic to the discussion.
It’s not always sunshine and rainbows but I don’t see the need to whine about every little thing.
Also note that I’m being fair here. Majority people who are not into foss simply avoid it because of how often they see people bitching about said foss products. It’s just not a good look.
I mean I understand why you feel that way but if someone were to refer to me as a woman, as a cis guy I would take it as a sign of disrespect, so I feel more obliged to take the side of the people who are complaining. I feel it is somewhat relevant considering one of the projects mentioned is developed by the people in the link.
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What the fuck? Safari is neutral???
That is Webkit, not Safari. Lots of things other than Safari use it.
Lots? Really?
Blink is based on Webkit too
Right but they’re being treated as different things in this context.
Yeah, TBF it’s just a silly meme, but I also immediately didn’t agree with safari being listed as neutral lol
Gnome’s browser uses it afaik
Fewer than Chromium, but lots compared to Servo.
WebKit is neutral. Remember the sheer amount if browsers using WebKitGTK, and even more that used to use QtWebKit.
I could name any of them. Gnome Web? I think that’s it.
Is there anything one could even install anymore based off of IE’s engine? That’d be a fun one to put on the old beater machine.
Aside from IE? Not much.
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