I left the US for Germany almost 2 years ago now. I’m a software/aerospace engineer. It was like time traveling to the future in some ways, worker right are way better here and 6 weeks of vacation has cemented that I’ll never go back.
Now I just need to do my part to make sure conservatives don’t ruin this country any more than they already have. Not excited for Merz to get into power and continue selling out his country.
Given the AfD results I wouldnt be sure if it couldnt get much much worse.
Tbh cost of living in germany has been rising a lot and a lot of public infrastructure has been severely underfunded.
I still know people leaving for the US, but given recent developments this has been getting rarer
I’m hoping, with the right policies and communication Die Linke can canbalize the AfD voter base. It’ll be hard with all of the money getting pumped into media to serve the right’s needs, but I’m hopeful the truth can cut threw the BS. Germany seems largely more educated and more responsive to science. But maybe that’s not data driven and just my emotional hope.
The atmosphere is nearly perfect for an EU resurgence. American workers potentially willing to leave is only one piece of it. You also have interest in drawing together as a continent against a new shared enemy. Hell even Germany is ready to drop their spending limitations to actually try to rise to the occasion.
I really wish they’d take it a step further and pump heavy investment into the region - and not just defense. Isn’t it exactly the right time to build European industries to replace the American ones they are no longer sure they can trust?
So true! I especially hope the software industry will be a focus. That’s where security and civilian life converge and Europe has the skilled labor to pull it off.
side note: Brain drain from an adversary is one of the reasons why the US completed the Manhattan Project faster. History repeating itself. Maybe this time around the fusion project is completed faster with the intention of long term peace without the need for deterrence.
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it just wasn’t big enough for texas…
It was the SSC, and they started building it but the federal Congress killed it, signed by Bill Clinton. Texas funded 400 million of the 2 billion cost up to the cancellation. I believe it was sacrificed on the altar of balancing the national budget. Texas reluctance to continue funding it was a contributing factor yes, but pretty much no one wanted to keep paying for it.
Keep in mind 2 billion in 90’s dollars is roughly 4-5 billion in today money.
I’ll remove my comment
First you gotta pitch that as a startup, why should I invest in this brain drain long term peace?
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Can some of y’all flee to Canada instead?
We have French Canada if your dead set on speaking French.
I 100% would but being “skilled labor” kinda ruins it. I am finding out that 15 years of nuclear instrumentation work doesn’t appear to help much, at least not according to what I have found. For now though I am stuck here dealing with the insanity of America’s downfall. New plan is to save all my money to spend abroad and in Canada when on vacation. Just embarrassing to be American now.
“Skilled labor” i.e. SEO (search-engine optimization)
I’d love to move to Canada. How can I find a job there?
The affordable housing is the more pressing problem.
how much worse is it than major metros in the empire?
I remember Vancouver area, all of it, spiking very fast and very hard a decade before the pandemic. I haven’t kept up with the market in a couple years though, maybe it’s gotten better?
maybe it’s gotten better
I’m sorry, you don’t seem to be familiar with the century we’re in.
Vancouver and Toronto are so expensive. What are some LCOL cities in Canada?
Also its very cold in winter. Love the super long summer days though :-)
This French university made the news on scientific news sources a week or so ago when they announced this, I thought it was a fluke… glad to see they are getting applicants
Of course, I am fully aware that this is just one isolated case since US-based academics would never think of applying for European positions. Most US-based academics would never know resources such as EURAXESS which hosts many academic positions in Eurozone and beyond, or jobrxiv dot org which also includes lots of European academic positions. This is not mentioning country-specific resources such as when I was lurking on jobbnorge dot no for Norwegian jobs, and a personal communication I had with someone at University of Gothenburg who was literally asking me where to look for US-based postdoctoral applicants…
Anyway what was I saying
I’ve been saying it since 2016: the EU should start granting political asylum to people from the US.
edit: I did say political
Reverse the brain drain of the 1930s.
Sure, 1930s…
and 1940s
I moved from the U.S. to Germany in 2020.
My running joke since was wondering whether I’d be eligible for citizenship or asylum first….
Almost over the finish line for being eligible for citizenship, but I feel like asylum isn’t that far off.
You don’t need asylum if you are a legal resident. Asylum is the most insecure form of permit, especially in Germany, where the society is currently getting more and more hostile to migration, including labeling countries like Afghanistan as “safe countries of origin” and organizing deportations with the Taliban.
Hence the “joke” part….
I think we don’t want open entrance policies in place that would make it easier for MAGAs to come over. Best to have some kind of requirement which filters out the MAGAs as much as possible, say minimum education level to get a work or digital nomad visa or only people from “at risk groups” such as Transexuals qualifying for asylum.
Were I am now, Portugal, there’s pretty open immigration policy for Brazil with no actual minimum requirements and the result is that we imported a ton of far right muppets from there, to the point that in the last Brazilian Presidential election the proportion of voters for Bolsonaro in Portugal (as Brasilians can vote from abroad) was a lot larger than in Brasil - since Brasilians resident in Portugal can get Portuguese nationality after 5 years, this also help fuel the rise of the Far Right locally.
Having some kind of reasonably easy and fair system to filter out the Fascist assholes would be much better.
Nope don’t do it. U will get MAGA. Be super careful vetting anything that loves trump and musk. I myself planning on retiring early. 45 yo software engineer. I will end up in SEA in next 4 years. Getting ready to sell all my investment property here. America is not going to last for too long.
We’re already getting MAGA, thanks to the internet. It’s called far-right populism. Many of their takes are taken over from the X crazies 1:1. Sometimes they don’t even fit our situation. No matter. Flooding the zone is all that counts.
U guys need to shut down Twitter and Facebook asap. Literally block it completely. Only way and only last chance. It’s like rabies
There are already a handful of good digital nomad (and other) visa options that are really tempting.
I haven’t done a TON of research here, just watched a lot of youtube videos discussing the process, daydreaming of placing some distance between myself and Trump. There are a handful of countries across Europe I’d jump at the chance to move to if there were reasonable odds to get permanent residence or citizenship.
omg then the EU as we know it wont exist for long if such policies were to be implemented.
because it would be full of people?
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Are you saying “they’re not sending their best”?
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You could move to East Asia or to Israel yourself. That is, if you’re intelligent enough.
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Back in 1945 you know how many people America took in who did any kind of scientific work. wernher von braun may be the most famous. That was just to insure that America would be leaders in the world. Now it doesn’t seem America wants to have anything to do with leading the world in any field to progresses america as a country.
Wernher Von Braun? This one?! Hahahah
Gather 'round while I sing you of Wernher von Braun A man whose allegiance Is ruled by expedience Call him a Nazi, he won’t even frown “Ha, Nazi, Schmazi” says Wernher von Braun
Don’t say that he’s hypocritical Say rather that he’s apolitical “Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That’s not my department” say Wernher von Braun
Wdym? We already have Musk, Thiel, Zuckerberg, Horowitz, Yarvin, etc.
EDIT: apparently the sarcasm wasn’t obvious, so here’s your ‘/s’
Literally people that try to rip the US apart and privatize it.
The pinnacle of leadership in the field of enshittification.
You just named a bunch of executives. The scientists are the people that need to be working for them for their companies to keep innovating. The scientists are the ones fleeing.
the usa doesnt need MORE capitalists
I feel like the amount of stupid per unit volume in America is indeed increasing.
But decreasing per kg :)
kg
“Stupid communist units that nobody understands”
- the USA, probably
Canada seriously needs to make a big show of offering the same thing. It’s now or never.
We don’t have the housing. Carney needs to get the government into home building yesterday.
it’s the perfect time to use that Canadian steel and aluminum
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deport all the illegals. its easier and faster than house building.
No no no, you’re trying to be a better place than the US. Stop talking like them.
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we deport and then the can come the legal way!
Most in Canada are here legally, might want to check your sources.
dude, as much as i’m anti-immigration, you’re overdoing it, and also, your proposals are ineffective.
in germany, for example, the population that immigrated since 2012 makes up approx. 3% of the total population. that means that the population is roughly 3% larger than it would be without that immigration.
that is what you should be talking about. 3% larger population means higher workforce (supply of labor), and therefore lower wages (prices for labor). That is because the immigrants add almost no demand for labor (since they have a low buying power).
Demand for labor is mainly driven by growth, and we’ve had two big waves of growth since 1800: Quantitative (industrialization) and qualitative (IT work). Since both of these two waves end their growth approx. now, the demand for labor goes down. There’s no point in importing more labor force, it would only make the wages go down. That is what you have to talk about: the decreasing wages through the import of cheap labor. It’s essentially wage-dumping in the own country. That is what the people should be talking about. Not racism. We’re not better people than them, we just need to get the workforce smaller to drive the wages up.
That requires, ofc, that the borders are closed also for goods and products. If products have to be produced inside the country because the borders are closed, companies can’t just do the wage dumping in another country.
Btw, almost everywhere the number of illegal immigrants is extremely low. In the US, they make up 25% of all immigrants, IIRC, which is not much. There’s not much there to talk about, especially since these illegal immigrants are good at hiding and hard to catch. But what you can do is to study the socio-economic consequences of immigration/high birth rate and then draw your conclusions. If you really care about the people, you’d first close the borders in all developed countries, and then drop the birth rate really really low. That would give power to the people, since they are in higher demand, and keep the wages as high as possible, because the production would stay approx. constant (think the farmland is constant) but the consumption is lowest, so there’s more resources for everyone.
This seems like a really bad take.
Do take a look at the age pyramid @Miaou posted. Germany needs a lot of young people to herd its old people. German ministers flying to the Phillipines and Kenya and Brazil to find care workers – that’s for a reason! And dropping the birth rate lower does not mean more high-paying jobs, it means more low-paying care jobs in relation to total number of jobs.
In addition there are a bunch of jobs that Germans don’t really do anymore (plucking asparagus, slaughtering hogs, cleaning office buildings, …) because they are badly paid hard labor which are however in some way useful to society.
Granted, preventing migrants from taking bad jobs may mean that high-paying automation jobs open up. But that’s the only silver lining. (Fwiw, Japan had a very strict immigration policy, because they figured that elderly care might be something easily accomplished with robot dogs and other gimmicks. It turns out though that that assumption was wrong. It also turns out that a lot of people from countries like Malaysia and the Phillipines would love to work in Japan, despite the racism. So Japan has adapted its policies on foreign labor somewhat now.)
in germany, for example, the population that immigrated since 2012 makes up approx. 3% of the total population. that means that the population is roughly 3% larger than it would be without that immigration.
That doesn’t sound correct. Source? As of 2022, 19% of Germany was foreign born. Unless there was some kind of mass immigration prior to 2012 - which I don’t see in the stats - you appear to be mistaken.
Please stop parroting this notion that Canada’s problems mirror those if the united states.
The number of so called “illegals” pales in comparison to the number of foreign investors buying up property and jacking IP the rental rates.
I’m just going to correct you here. The problem if Canadian housing isn’t foreign investors (they account by like 2% of the real state market), but the absurd zoning laws and the “missing middle”.
Check our “oh the urbanity” youtube channel, they do a really good analysis on Canadian houses markets.
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You should probably go back to whatever hole conservatives hide in nowadays. Xitter seems more your speed for trolling
Reddit, I heard
By illegals you mean people with different ethnicities immigrating LEGALLY should be kicked out because they’re you know different
Isn’t a large portion of housing owner by Chinese “investors” and just sitting empty? You may want to consider why your attention in on the immigrants.
Or, you know, force investors to sell.
A lot of scientists get paid terribly in Canada unfortunately. Certain industries are non existent or exist to support the US industry (mainly pharma)
I wish I was a scientist so I could go too.
And frankly, this is just another parallel to WWII and Nazi Germany’s rise. The non-fascist scientists and people fled to safer pastures.
I’m doing my part fleeing to Sweden, granted I’m a programmer and game dev so not a scientist. I’m done letting the US profit off my skills though
You will like it, Sweden has a nice relaxed working culture where we actually care about how people feel at work.
Welcome home to the capital country of gaming!
Thank you! I’m so excited to make my way. Just hoping the US holds out long enough for me to make the move I’m definitely a bit scared with how fast it’s all happening here
I’m in the process of getting certified to be a nurse in New Zealand. Fuck this country.
I want more European game developers, so yeah good on you
Remember that your last place of residence in the US determines your voting residence while living abroad. If possible, move to a swing state (preferably with low population, and preferably in a swing district for local elections, too) long enough to establish residency before moving abroad. Plan ahead now and maximize the impact of your vote in the long run. Also register as a republican so you can vote in republican primaries (to vote for anyone who isn’t Trump), as well as making gerrymandering harder.
I assume you’re taking a big hit salary-wise (a trade-off I would make, for the record).
Cost of living. You earn a lot less in Europe/ UK, but you pay far less to have a basic standard of living, and enjoy the safety net.
This is always said, I have seen the stats that prove it but I have just never come across people here that are as strapped and in debt as a lot of americans I meet. Not to mention the amount of additional taxes like state, county, huge property taxes. The numbers must add up, I wont deny the facts but how itnworks is beyond me
Well I’m going back to school there first to get an actual degree. After that though yeah I’m expecting to make around 1/3 what I am currently, between switching countries and going from automation engineering to level design. I think it’ll be a worthwhile trade-off too
If you take into account all the things you don’t have to pay, that salary is not that low
Out of interest, since moving continents is no small matter in my opinion; what makes that, and making a third in terms of salary vs the US, a worthwhile trade-off?
Lots of reasons over the years but the most immediately pressing is I’m trans so if the US starts black bagging people I’m high up there on the list
Ah gotcha yeah that makes a lot of sense! I hope that kind of bigotry dies out again soon but doesn’t look like its slowing down. I hope you can feel safe and be more like your true self now.
Unfortunately I don’t think it is going to die out, I think it will need to be rooted out at the cost of lives. The feeling safe part is important but I’ve been living my true self a while now. I make an active effort to not pass too well so that other trans people who feel they can’t show themselves can see me and know there are others around. That was important for me early on so I want to provide that. Has led to some less than stellar interactions though even in Seattle…
Not OP but like come on, look outside - the country is a roadside attraction. I wouldnt raise my kids there under any circumstance…so I guess safety is a consideration.
Yeah I know but didn’t want to assume. Some people have family roots for example. I do work with US colleagues and not all feel the need to move countries for example, which I find very interesting because it sure looks like a shit show to me. I’m not based in the US myself.
I was actually just starting to root here, for the first time in my life I felt like I could settle in somewhere. Then my polycyle imploded, lost most my friends, divorce, job is getting worse every day. Leaving the US has always been a dream of mine but I felt tied here most the time. Losing my entire social circle created a convenient opening
I have never heard that word before, am I to take it that your entire social circle was based on a sexual relationship?
Best of luck with it all, definitely get out of that shithole.
Certain stuff, and especially rent, is a lot cheaper in Europe, though.
It was a pretty big shock for us when so many of the Ukrainian refugees that arrived during recent years came in SUVs, and they looked quite new, too. But in Ukraine, one of Europe’s poorest countries by far, cars cost a lot less, too.
Don’t forget to get rid of your US citizenship or they’ll still profit off your work.
i thought it was just that if the country you’re in taxed you less than what the US would, then you have to pay the difference to the IRS?
… and there’s no way in hell the US taxes less than sweden (and for anyone that hasn’t had an ice pick lobotomy that’s a good thing)
*edit: foreign tax credit
That’s correct. You’d have to be earning way, WAY over the average Swedish salary before you start owing the IRS anything. That said, I wouldn’t put it past Trump to remove the foreign earned income exclusion to coerce people into moving back to the US as part of the ”trade war” nonsense.
wow yeah i hadn’t considered that
fucking ew
How so?
If you make over X thousand dollars you have to pay taxes on it to the US even if you don’t live there. The value is something like 160k.
isn’t it only the difference above what you’re taxed in your country and what the US would tax?
and since the US tax rate is one of the lowest in the world, it almost never applies
i think it’s covered by the foreign tax credit
That’s true up until that X thousand mark. There is a limit on the foreign tax credit the US provides. So you pay no taxes to the US up until a certain income figure, then you pay essentially double taxes (US and where you actually live).
Don’t worry you won’t make 160k in Sweden :(
Does that matter if you’ve already cut all other ties and live somewhere else? I mean, actually paying the taxes seems like more of an active choice if you’re living in a different jurisdiction, isn’t it?
Extradition is a thing and no matter how much I hate what the rich have made America, I still would prefer to settle our debts. I lived there, I was raised there, I owe them my taxes like a good citizen - but now that I’m gone if I ever get close to having to pay taxes to them again I will remove my citizenship. They no longer provide me any services, in fact I’d argue they hurt me now more than they help me, and I want to become an EU citizen first and foremost.
I’ve always viewed countries as businesses which one should leave when their service and product is bad.
You still need a valid passport, and for becoming Citizen often further documents like birth certificates and certificates of the parents, no older than x-months and with an approval-stamp by the embassy, that these are indeed real documents.
Did you just job hunt over there and get a work visa?
I’ve got enough tech experience I probably could have. I’m going back to school though out of savings and going to get on a student visa
Where you going to? I’m a data engineer living in Malmö. I can help you get settled if you’re in Skåne
Depending where I may get accepted, I’m likely to end up in Umeå, Boden, or Skellefteå. So just a bit further north than Malmö 😅 I appreciate the offer though
Oh that’s nice; far up north. Hope you’ll enjoy it up there! All the best and awesome you’re choosing to come here!
Interesting. How easy is it to stay over there if you go to school? Are the student visas hard to get?
I have to line up a job before I graduate because I don’t qualify for like a “just graduated give me some time to settle” visa, so that may be difficult. I don’t really know if the student visa is hard to get. I need to be accepted to school first then I can use that to make my visa application, so the timing is going to be pretty rushed. I’m going to have to set up moving and living, basically be in standstill for a bit waiting to see if I can pull the trigger, then hope the visa clears
As long as you get accepted into the school, and as long as you meet the basic requirements like having enough money to support yourself and stuff there generally shouldn’t be a problem getting the visa approved. But the processing time is a killer. I’ve seen Migrationsverket take so long to process the visas that several students had to start their masters program a couple months late. The university did allow them to start late, but they really really struggled getting caught up and quite frankly the school shouldn’t have allowed it because there was really no chance of them succeeding in the program because of it (this was prior to Covid and there was no remote option for any of the coursework). Those students were really screwed over and would have been better off deferring enrollment until the next year. But the department was desperately lacking funding and needed to get as many people enrolled as possible. So they were maybe a bit dishonest about how much of a challenge it would be to get caught up.
Anyways, submit the visa application as early as you possibly can and hope the Migrationsverket processes the application quickly. Otherwise you’re at the mercy of your school and whether they’ll be willing to let you start late. Im assuming post-Covid you’d be able to attend classes remotely, so at least you wouldn’t have the issue of falling too far behind and flunking out…
Any recommendations on where to look? Specialized Sr Software Architect with a lot of Healthcare and Defense experience. I just need to be able to bring my family. Completely unconcerned about any amount of paycut. I just want my children to grow up safe. I’ve been looking at Ireland mainly, but open to any suggestions.
Canada? What’s your background is the honest answer because if you can get some sort of naturalization through your parents it’s the best bet.
Honest question though if YouTube has taught me anything it’s that America is unique on if you leave you’re still obligated to pay taxes to America and if your renounce your citizenship you’re still obligated to pay America. Seriously the country is a racket.
If you can eventually get citizenship in on EU country, you can work in any of them.
Sr Software Architect? Generally speaking, Netherlands is going to be the best salary range for you and first 5 years I believe you can get a tax cut.
In Estonia, we have Milrem, which is doing military robotics. Not sure who, if anyone, is doing a decent healthcare solution. In my country the government orders new developments through RFPs rather than some single company making and selling a solution I believe.
To add to the previous comment: netherlands but there is an housing issue. Belgium has in military the FN Herstal weapons manufacturing plant, and a few stuff linked to NATO. But on a healthcare level, there are loads of pharma companies (GSK, Johnson, UCB, Solvay, Viatrus,… ). France has Dassault, so there is loads linked with military and software alike. And they have Sanofi in healthcare.
Big companies will go through bigger loops to help you with a visa. But in any case a lot of specialities can recieve fast tracked visa applications
Myself included lol.
Moi même aussi lol
Pas besoin du “même”, juste: “moi aussi” :)
J’espère que la France vous plaira, bonne adaptation!
Est-ce qu’on distribue les baguettes, les cigarettes et les bérets obligatoires à la frontière française, ou est-ce plutôt une chose parisienne ?
They’re more like a passport. If you don’t have them when you arrive, we won’t let you in. 😂
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Je ne comprends pas l’anglais grossier
Do make sure you understand rule 1 of this community though. :)
Oh yeah, I was only speaking French out of courtesy to the other poster. I just figured that would be a “French response” to the removed comment.
G’day knackers, what’s crack-a-lackin?
French is such a beautiful language.
Shit I was studying German.
Come on over, we have plenty of beer, Kollege
I learned from my friends "Von Regen in die Traufe“, you flee from Trump to get that semi-bald Temu copy of him in Germany. Things look dark for us in Europe everywhere.
I want to live in Germany! I got skills and would be happy to study abroad
Makes me wonder where all that money is going? I mean they must be making billions in those funding cuts. Are they all gonna funnel that money into Russia and tech oligarch’s pockets?
They want to create an oligarchy in the US.
Privatise everything and give them to their billionaire buddies to run.
Imagine the money you can make by selling weather data, gathered by government sensors. Or a private VA organisation with an exclusive contract with the government.
Selling to who?
If the masses are penniless serfs, who is going to buy the services provided? One of the other 8 billionaires who own the country?
They really haven’t considered the longer term here. Ultimately, they’ll be kings of a worthless backward shitheap, despised and shunned by the international community, their best and most promising exfiltrated to the rest of the world then fenced off to rot into obscurity.
Like North Korea, more or less.
That is exactly what they want. They want us to literally live like dark age serfs while they live in opulent and highly technologically advanced palaces that cater to them.
They don’t just want everything. They want everyone else to have NOTHING. A billionaire in a chauffered Bently that costs 500,000 dollars definitely looks down on people driving Honda Civics that cost 20,000. But imagine if they were in that Bently and the people around them had no cars, and even a bicycle is a luxury, and whatever public transport that is available is prone to breakdown. Their ability to look down upon the serfs is much greater, which is what they want.
The issue is that technology advances with the whole, the internet/smartphones/gaming etc. All benefit from large populations being able to buy/engage with them.
They don’t care. At all. They would hoard it all for themselves and use as many common people as medical guinea pigs for medical experiments to prolong their own wretched existence, too. Imagine the average ‘elite’ living 20 or 30 years longer than the ‘common’ person. They would see more superior and like gods even though they fully well know it is entirely them killing their underlings.
Trump effectively orchestrated the fucked up response to the pandemic that resulted in 500,000 deaths. They knew that far more minorities would be harmed than whites. If you think they also ultimately care about their white underlings you are wrong.
The point was, that isn’t possible. If everyone is too poor to consume, their system stops, and they aren’t rich anymore.
Long term, the snake is eating it’s own tail. What happens when it gets to it’s own head? It chokes to death (and scavengers pick over the corpse).
Either they’re too stupid to know what happens at the end, or they’re stupid enough to think they can jump off the ride with the loot before it crashes.
In neither scenario would I want to be living that close to the coming chaos.
Either they’re too stupid to know what happens at the end, or they’re stupid enough to think they can jump off the ride with the loot before it crashes.
Both. The answer is both. They really think they can survive environmental collapses. They would more than the average person… but not for very long.
The US is an oligarchy already. It has been since at least the late 70s. It is just that now the system is falling apart.
Brain drain also shifts the country rightward. Worked well for Fidesz, will work well for the Republicans.
yes
Not to Russia probably, not directly at least. Just to oligarchs. But not just tech oligarchs, oil barons will obviously take their share, no oligarchs will be left hanging
Makes me wonder where all that money is going?
Scroll down to spending categories. Most money is spent on things like social security, medicare, veteran care, unemployment insurance, and health. Defense is 13% (and absolutely needs to be audited ASAP). Interest payments on debt is now 13% and growing fast. This is why it’s important to at least reduce the deficit as fast as possible. Imagine how much good the government could do with another $400B each year without those interest payments. (well, maybe not this government, but the next one).
Since this shows spending since 2024 oct it would mostly relate to spending in the government before actually wouldn’t it? I am more interested in what they are going to do with all the influx of money that will come from all the funding cuts that have happened in the last month or so.
Left for Taiwan in the first Trump presidency. Haven’t been back since.
Cool, what you’re doing over there?
Website optimization. My customers are global so I can work remotely.
Jealous! Taiwan is an amazing place
Come visit. We are a very welcoming country and love foreigners and tourist!
When you gonna go full China? Feel like that’s the best bet at this point.
I prefer to call it West Taiwan, at this point, China needs democracy and what best to bring it than Taiwan.
