- cross-posted to:
- framework@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- framework@lemmy.ml
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To anyone complaining about non-replaceable RAM: This machine is for AI, that is why.
Think of it like a GPU wirh a CPU on the side, vs the other way around.
Inference requires very fast ram transfer speed, and that is only possible (currently) on soldered buses. Even this is pretty slow at 256Gb/s, but it’s RAM size of 96GB to GPU makes it interesting for larger models.
I don’t get the point. Framework laptops are interesting because they are modular but for desktop PCs that’s the default. And Framework’s PCs are less modular than a standard PC because the RAM is soldered
These little buggers are loud, right?
The Noctua fan option should be pretty quiet.
Hmm, probably not. I think it just has the single 120mm fan that probably doesn’t need to spin up that fast under normal load. We’ll have to wait for reviews.
Calling it a gaming PC feels misleading. It’s definitely geared more towards enterprise/AI workloads. If you want upgradeable just buy a regular framework. This desktop is interesting but niche and doesn’t seem like it’s for gamers.
I think it’s like Apple-Niche
Question about how shared VRAM works
So I need to specify in the BIOS the split, and then it’s dedicated at runtime, or can I allocate VRAM dynamically as needed by workload?
On macos you don’t really have to think about this, so wondering how this compares.
On my 7800, it’s static. The 2GB I allocate is not usable for the CPU, and compute apps don’t like it “overflowing” past that.
This is on Linux, on a desktop, ASRock mobo. YMMV.
It’s typically dynamic
Looks like a pile of shit for easily-impressionable morons, but that’s to be expected from framework.
What exactly do you want instead?
Great products for great prices!
Like what, specifically, instead of this?
Lol. Are you nuts? Am I really supposed to sit here and list off what makes a great product for a great price?
Let’s be real. You don’t like how I criticized how people like you are getting taken for a ride so you’re desperate to make it seem like it’s not true.
The sooner you realize how you’re being taken advantage of, the sooner you can start to do something about it.
Am I really supposed to sit here and list off what makes a great product for a great price?
I don’t understand what you are asking for.
You don’t have to be extensive, but… what would you want instead? A more traditional Mini PC? A dGPU instead? A different size laptop? Like, if you could actually tell Framework what you want, in brief, what would you say?
Fair enough.
I skimmed it for a few seconds, got a little bit ill at the $1100 starting price, and then it occurred to me: what is this for?
Wasn’t framework’s whole thing about making modular laptops? What value are they bringing to the mini-ITX market? They’re already modular. In fact, it looks like they’re taking away customizability with soldered RAM.
You asked me what I want, and this is definitely what I don’t want. If they wanted to make this product appealing to me, they’d have to lower the price and live more modest lifestyles with the more modest profit margins.
Edit: After closer inspection (albeit, not that close so I may have missed something) it looks like this… thing doesn’t even have a dedicated GPU. Yeah, framework can suck my fucking balls lol.
You can literally get a 4070 gaming laptop these days for ~$1000 and framework is trying to push this shit? They can fuck off so hard it’s not even funny. This is why the free world never has enough to go around, because we waste our excess on dumb shit like this.
Here’s a gaming laptop with a 4070 and a 144hz screen for $900 at Walmart:
Fuck framework.
This is ostensibly more of a workstation/dev thing. The integrated GPU is more or less like a very power efficient laptop 4070/4080 with unlimited VRAM, depending on which APU you pick, and the CPU is very fast, with desktop Ryzen CCDs but double the memory bandwidth of what even an 9800 X3D has. In that sense, it’s a steal compared to Nvidia DIGITs or an Apple M4 Max, and Mini PC makers alternatives haven’t really solidified yet.
I think Framework knows they can’t compete with a $900 Walmart laptop and the crazy bulk pricing/corner cutting they do, nor can they price/engineer things (with the same bulk discounts) at the higher end like a ROG Z13/G14.
So… this kinda makes sense to me. They filled a gap where OEMs are enshittifying things, which feels very framework to me.
It’s kinda cool but seems a bit expensive at this moment.
For the performance, it’s actually quite reasonable. 4070-like GPU performance, 128gb of memory, and basically the newest Ryzen CPU performance, plus a case, power supply, and fan, will run you about the same price as buying a 4070, case, fan, power supply, and CPU of similar performance. Except you’ll actually get a faster CPU with the Framework one, and you’ll also get more memory that’s accessible by the GPU (up to the full 128gb minus whatever the CPU is currently using)
I swear, you people must be paid to shill garbage.
Always a response for anyone who has higher standards, lol.
“It’s too expensive”
“It’s actually fairly priced for the performance it provides”
“You people must be paid to shill garbage”
???
Ah yes, shilling garbage, also known as: explaining that the price to performance ratio is just better, actually.
Soldered on ram and GPU. Strange for Framework.
Not strange at all.
They’re a business that makes its money off of selling hype to morons.
Apparently AMD couldn’t make the signal integrity work out with socketed RAM. (source: LTT video with Framework CEO)
IMHO: Up until now, using soldered RAM was lazy and cheap bullshit. But I do think we are at the limit of what’s reasonable to do over socketed RAM. In high performance datacenter applications, socketed RAM is on it’s way out (see: MI300A, Grace-{Hopper,Blackwell},Xeon Max), with onboard memory gaining ground. I think we’ll see the same trend on consumer stuff as well. Requirements on memory bandwidth and latency are going up with recent trends like powerful integrated graphics and AI-slop, and socketed RAM simply won’t work.
It’s sad, but in a few generations I think only the lower end consumer CPUs will be possible to use with socketed RAM. I’m betting the high performance consumer CPUs will require not only soldered, but on-board RAM.
Finally, some Grace Hopper to make everyone happy: https://youtube.com/watch?v=gYqF6-h9Cvg
Sound like a downgrade to me I rather have capability of adding more ram than having a soldered limited one doesn’t matter if it’s high performance. Especially for consumer stuff.
I definitely wouldn’t mind soldered RAM if there’s still an expansion socket. Solder in at least a reasonable minimum (16G?) and not the cheap stuff but memory that can actually use the signal integrity advantage, I may want more RAM but it’s fine if it’s a bit slower. You can leave out the DIMM slot but then have at least one PCIe x16 expansion slot. A free one, one in addition to the GPU slot. PCIe latency isn’t stellar but on the upside, expansion boards would come with their own memory controllers, and push come to shove you can configure the faster RAM as cache / the expansion RAM as swap.
Heck, throw the memory into the CPU package. It’s not like there’s ever a situation where you don’t need RAM.
All your RAM needs to be the same speed unless you want to open up a rabbit hole. All attempts at that thus far have kinda flopped. You can make very good use of such systems, but I’ve only seen it succeed with software specifically tailored for that use case (say databases or simulations).
The way I see it, RAM in the future will be on package and non-expandable. CXL might get some traction, but naah.
Ye the soldered ram is for sure making me doubt framework now.
Apparently AMD wasn’t able to make socketed RAM work, timings aren’t viable. So Framework has the choice of doing it this way or not doing it at all.
In that case, not at all is the right choice until AMD can figure out that frankly brain dead easy thing.
“brain dead easy thing”… All you need is to just manage signal integrity of super fast speed ram to a super hungry state of the art soc that benefits from as fast of memory as it can get. Sounds easy af. /s
They said that it was possible, but they lost over half of the speed doing it, so it was not worth it. It would severely cripple performance of the SOC.
The only real complaint here is calling this a desktop, it’s somewhere in between a NUC and a real desktop. But I guess it technically sits on a desk top, while also being an itx motherboard.
Oh yeah I’m sure you could’ve done it no problem
Signal integrity is a real issue with dimm modules. It’s the same reason you don’t see modular VRAM on GPUs. If the ram needs to behave like VRAM, it needs to run at VRAM speeds.
and more at people who want the smallest, most powerful desktop they can build
Well, there’s this:
Yeah, the screw holes didn’t fit, that’s why. And the cooler didn’t fit the case, obviously. And the original cooler not the CPU’s turbo. It’s fine, it still runs most games in 3k on the iGPU.
“To enable the massive 256GB/s memory bandwidth that Ryzen AI Max delivers, the LPDDR5x is soldered,” writes Framework CEO Nirav Patel in a post about today’s announcements. “We spent months working with AMD to explore ways around this but ultimately determined that it wasn’t technically feasible to land modular memory at high throughput with the 256-bit memory bus. Because the memory is non-upgradeable, we’re being deliberate in making memory pricing more reasonable than you might find with other brands.”
😒🍎
Edit: to be clear, I was only trying to point out that “we’re being deliberate in making memory pricing more reasonable than you might find with other brands” is clearly targeting the Mac Mini, because Apple likes to price-gouge on RAM upgrades. (“Unamused face looking at Apple,” get it? Maybe I emoji’d wrong.) My comment is not meant to be an opinion about the soldered RAM.
Well, more specifically: why didn’t they try to go for LPCAMM?
Because you’d get like half the memory bandwidth to a product where performance is most likely bandwidth limited. Signal integrity is a bitch.
I thought LPCAMM was designed specifically to address the bandwidth and connectivity issues that crop up around high-bandwidth + low-voltage RAM?
Would 256GB/s be too slow for large llms?
It runs on the gpu
Many LLM operations rely on fast memory and gpus seem to have that. Even though their memory is soldered and vbios is practically a black box that is tightly controlled. Nothing on a GPU is modular or repairable without soldering skills(and tools).
To be fair it starts with 32GB of RAM, which should be enough for most people. I know it’s a bit ironic that Framework have a non-upgradeable part, but I can’t see myself buying a 128GB machine and hoping to raise it any time in the future.
If you really need an upgradeable machine you wouldn’t be buying a mini-PC anyways, seems like they’re trying to capture a different market entirely.
My biggest gripe about non replaceable components is the chance that they’ll fail. I’ve had pretty much every component die on me at some point. If it’s replaceable it’s fine because you just get a new component, but if it isn’t you now have an expensive brick.
I will admit that I haven’t had anything fail recently like in the past, I have a feeling the capacitor plague of the early 2000s influenced my opinion on replaceable parts.
I also don’t fall in the category of people that need soldered components in order to meet their demands, I’m happy with raspberry pis and used business PCs.
According to the CEO in the LTT video about this thing it was a design choice made by AMD because otherwise they cannot get the ram speed they advertise.
There’s camm2, the new standard for high speed removable memory. Asus already has released a motherboard that uses it and it matches the 8000 mts of the Framework which won’t be out until 3Q this year.
Framework chose non upgradable because it was easier/cheaper. That’s fine except Framework’s entire marketing has been built around upgradeable hardware.
Which is fine, but there was no obligation for Framework to use that chip either.
seems like they’re trying to capture a different market entirely.
Yes that’s the problem.
That they want to sell cheap ai research machines to use for workstation?
That’s a poor attempt to knowingly misrepresent my statement.
No, it is a question
The answer is that they’re abandoning their principles to pursue some other market segment.
Although I guess it could be said to be like Porsche and Lamborghini selling SUVs to support the development of their sports cars…
I don’t understand how that answers my question
Yeah hugely disappointed by this tbh. They should have made a gaming capable steam machine in cooperation with valve instead :)
This is an AI chip designed primarily for running AI workflows. The fact that it can game is secondary
Yeah exactly, its worthless… Even the big players already admit to the AI hype being over. This is the worst possible thing to launch for them, its like they have no idea who their customers are.
The AI hype being over doesn’t mean no one is working on AI anymore. LLMs and other trained models are here to stay whether you like it or not.
Really framework ? Soldered ram ? How dissapointing
The CEO of Framework said that this was because the CPU doesn’t support unsoldered RAM. He added that they asked AMD if there was any way they could help them support removable memory. Supposedly an AMD engineer was tasked with looking into it, but AMD came back and said that it wasn’t possible.
Specifically AMD said that it’s achievable but you’ll be operating at approx 50% of available bandwidth, and that’s with LPCAMM2. SO/DIMMs are right out of the running.
Mostly this is AMDs fault but if you want a GPU with 96-110 GBs of memory you don’t really have a choice.
The Framework Desktop is powered by an AMD Ryzen AI Max processor, a Radeon 8060S integrated GPU, and between 32GB and 128GB of soldered-in RAM.
The CPU and GPU are one piece of silicon, and they’re soldered to the motherboard. The RAM is also soldered down and not upgradeable once you’ve bought it, setting it apart from nearly every other board Framework sells.
It’d raise an eyebrow if it was a laptop but it’s a freakin’ desktop. Fuck you framework.
insanely hostile response to something like this. they attempted to have these parts replaceable, AMD physically couldn’t do it. they’ve still made it as repairable as possible, and will without a doubt be more repairable than similar devices using this chipset. fucking relax, being reactionary without being informed is dumb.
I get the frustration with a system being so locked down, but if 32gb is the minimum I don’t really see the problem. This pc will be outdated before you really need to upgrade the ram to play new games.
It’s not just about upgrading. It’s also about being able to repair your computer. RAM likes to go bad and on a normal PC, you can replace it easily. Buy a cheap stick, take out the old RAM, put in the new one and you’ll have a working computer again. Quick & easy and even your grandpa is able to run Memtest and do a quick switch. But if you solder down everything, the whole PC becomes electronic waste as most people won’t be able to solder RAM.
Yeah, it totally fucks repairability. But it sounds like this is not something this company normally does, and not something they could control.
They should at least offer a superior warranty to cover such scenarios.
The hell you mean “not something they could control”? Their whole deal is making upgradeable, repairable devices and ram thats replaceable is no industry secret. Their options should have been make it work or dont make it at all.
If you read into it, this was a limitation on AMD’s part, which they tried to resolve. You don’t have to buy it, and the rest of their lineup should meet your expectations.
This is one stupid product. It really goes against everything the framework brand has identified with.
I’d argue not. It’s as modular/repairable as the platform can be (with them outright stating the problematic soldered RAM), and not exorbitantly priced for what it is.
But what I think is most “Framework” is shooting for a niche big OEMs have completely flubbed or enshittified. There’s a market (like me) that wants precisely this, not like a framework-branded gaming tower or whatever else a desktop would look like.
This is a standard a370 mini PC at a high price.
There’s Beelink, Minisforum, Aoostar and many others.
The AI max chips are a completely different platform, more than double the physical silicon size of most minipc chips.
Most miniPC vendors have already announced AI Max products:
https://www.gmktec.com/blog/gmktec-a-global-leader-in-ai-mini-pcs-unveils-the-amd-ryzen-ai-max-395
But Framework released it now.
Nope, they’re just available to pre-order with an estimate of shipping from Q3 this year. They’re not shipping now.
I just checked, the gmktec link above says that their product is supposed to ship in Q1-Q2 this year, earlier than framework’s.The person above you confidently posted that it’s shipping now and got an up vote despite being wrong.
I never understand people who confidently post wrong things that are easily googlable.
Not really sure who this is for. With soldered RAM is less upgradeable than a regular PC.
AI nerds maybe? Sure got a lot of RAM in there potentially attached to a GPU.
But how capable is that really when compared to a 5090 or similar?
The 5090 is basically useless for AI dev/testing because it only has 32GB. Mind as well get an array of 3090s.
The AI Max is slower and finicky, but it will run things you’d normally need an A100 the price of a car to run.
But that aside, there are tons of workstations apps gated by nothing but VRAM capacity that this will blow open.
Useless is a strong term. I do a fair amount of research on a single 4090. Lots of problems can fit in <32 GB of VRAM. Even my 3060 is good enough to run small scale tests locally.
I’m in CV, and even with enterprise grade hardware, most folks I know are limited to 48GB (A40 and L40S, substantially cheaper and more accessible than A100/H100/H200). My advisor would always say that you should really try to set up a problem where you can iterate in a few days worth of time on a single GPU, and lots of problems are still approachable that way. Of course you’re not going to make the next SOTA VLM on a 5090, but not every problem is that big.
… but only OpenCL workloads, right?
Not exactly. OpenCL as a compute framework is kinda dead.
What types of compute can you run on an AMD GPU today?
Most CUDA or PyTorch apps can be run through ROCM. Your performance/experience may vary. ZLUDA is also being revived as an alternate route to CUDA compat, as the vast majority of development/intertia is with CUDA.
Vulkan has become a popular “community” GPU agnostic API, all but supplanting OpenCL, even though it’s not built for that at all. Hardware support is just so much better, I suppose.
There are some other efforts trying to take off, like MLIR-based frameworks (with Mojo being a popular example), Apache TVM (with MLC-LLM being a prominent user), XLA or whatever Google is calling it now, but honestly getting away from CUDA is really hard. It doesn’t help that Intel’s unification effort is kinda failing because they keep dropping the ball on the hardware side.
