- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
Summary
Trump just presided over one of the greatest diplomatic disasters in modern history, with flared tempers, raised voices, and shredded protocol.
Never before has a U.S. president bullied and berated an adversary, never mind an ally, in such a public way.
During a tense Oval Office meeting, Trump and JD Vance attacked Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, demanding he accept a peace deal with Russia or lose U.S. support.
The conversation devolved into shouting, with Trump accusing Zelenskyy of being ungrateful and “gambling with World War III.”
The meeting ended in chaos, with no agreement reached.
Zelenskyj had every right to question Vance the way he did, but it wasn’t the right time to do so if he wanted their respect.
It was disrespectful. It hurts me to concede this point. I didn’t want it to be true but I had to see the cause for the fight breaking out, and I hate to admit that it was Zelenskyj who put Vance on the spot in front of everyone like he was on trial, and put him to shame. That’s not something you want to do when you’re trying to make a deal for your people.
Zelenskyj has too much of a backbone, unfortunately. Respect to him, for standing up against bullshit, but it was definitely a case of picking your battles.
Wtf? Are you that cooked you just can’t swallow your US pride even when your leaders are this foul? Uncanny. Where is the line for you? What do you need before you are willing to write off something USA?
😆👌
Not sure if you fully comprehended what I said.
Everybody, especially Zelenskyy, knew that this was going to be a bad deal, for one simple reason: Putin won’t back down on Ukraine, and Trump will never defy Putin. So, the best possible outcome is that talks are televised, so that the world can see that he’s being reasonable, and Trump was being a bully. And it worked!
Is this really a given? He must want something.
He does. He wants Ukraine.
Okay, besides Ukraine. Yes, I think that you could set up a deal to give Putin something that he wants in exchange for a truce. The problem is Putin can’t be trusted, and, sooner or later, he’ll break the truce, because he really, really, really wants Ukraine.
What’s the real reason he wants Ukraine so badly? I don’t see a reason other than using it as a springboard to attack the rest of us in Europe. Or is Ukraine his secret bae somehow?
What? This is a nothing comment. Your original comment is very clear. Ok, not us American. Still a tosser
Alright, kid. Talk to me again when you have something else to say than only ad hominems and when you can carry an adult conversation.
JFC.
So what should’ve been the answer to Vance’s proposal of “diplomacy”, in your opinion? Do you think he shouldn’t have questioned the validity of it, in spite of the precedents? Wouldn’t that just mean accepting the deal without any guarantee of protection like it happened before?
If Zelenskyj really had the ambition of accepting a deal here, he should’ve just let it slide. Diplomacy is always a good thing if it’s fair and just. But we all know Vance is full of shit in this case. You have to have the right to defend your land, obviously. We know this.
But starting to question someone and putting someone in the spot on live TV that you’re trying to make a deal with, and making them lose face in front of their own people in their home court, that’s a deal breaker. You could tell because Vance had nothing to retort with other than say Zelenskyj was being disrespectful.
I mean, this is just facts. I don’t like it more than anyone else. This was a shit situation. He needs the deal, but had to swallow a lot of shit if he were to get it, but he chose not to. Respect to him for that, but now it is what it is.
If he felt he didn’t really need the deal, then he chose the right thing to do by not taking bullshit. So good on him.
I don’t think people in this thread realize I’m on Zelenskyj’s side in this. Everyone is just down voting every thing I post because Zelenskyj can do no wrong (❤️) and Trump is a monster (which he is), but negotiations are more nuanced than black and white sometimes lol. There’s psychology at play here. Oh well.
I mean, he was asking a question that had to be asked at one point or another. If Vance had an answer to that, he wouldn’t have lost face. If he didn’t, that means any kind of deal they could’ve made would’ve been useless (if not harmful) to Ukraine.
What would’ve he gained by not making that question? The chance to make a deal with no warranties? I feel like he’s a very good strategic thinker, and that wasn’t a choice dictated by pride or by the heat of the moment. There was nothing significant to gain by not asking that question, they would’ve just discussed the deal behind closed doors and he’d still have to refuse because Trump’s only warranty would still be “well so far he hasn’t broken promises with me, though”.
Seems to me like there was no point in being there at all except to argue in that case? That’s how I interpret what you are saying. If there were no guarantees in this deal, why is Zelenskyj there in the first place, but to shame them (rightfully)?
I think it’s because he hoped there were actual guarantees, considering Trump is definitely interested in Ukraine’s mineral industry. But as the meeting went on it became increasingly clear that keeping Putin his BFF was even more important and he just wanted to have his cake and eat it too.
I just don’t think it adds up, because Zelenskyj was thanking Trump and saying God bless Trump and being appreciative in demeanor all the way up until Vance’s horse shit. To me it just seems like he took so much offense to Vance’s remark about diplomacy that he couldn’t keep it in. Again, no blame here. But it just seemed like it wasn’t the way it was supposed to go.
OTOH, it’s possible he’s consciously splitting with the US in hopes of getting the EU with him. Long term, could be smart.
Yeah, could be some kind of 300 IQ move but, it didn’t feel like it was planned. It felt like he was just acting emotionally. 😞
Especially when he already has the EU with him. 🤷♂️
lol, down voted for speculating.