That is different from being picked up on the street and sent to another country, no courts, no lawyers, no nothing.

We’re in a de facto vs. de jure argument.

Nazis in Poland; de facto I agree with you. De jure not so much. It was an apartheid system where (depending in when in the timeline) Jews, Poles and Blacks had a distinct set of rights that were routinely violated.

US legal system; de jure I agree with you. De facto not so much. The US has a looooong history of blatant rights violations and use of black sites (GTMO, Homan square, Camp Kościuszko etc.). The specific things your referencing is a relic from the Obama era (article from 2014 talking about legislation from 2012) .

My annoyance comes from the conflating of de facto vs de jure and then picking which one you focus on depending on what scenario best boosters your claim and not realizing de facto =/= de jure.

That’s not to say it isn’t fucked up, but that pining for the old days of law and order isn’t what you think it is. ‘return to status quo’ is not a fix.

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Stats. Facts. Stop gish galloping and ad homenen-ing.

You can pick another of the arguments I made if you’d preferable.

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My thesis is “the general population is too scared for effective resistance” nothing I have said is contradictory to that.

You keep moving the goalpost and going on tangents. Would you like to directly answer any the claims I’ve posted?

Find any stats on police killings that support your views?

Okay, I wanted to drop this because bucket seemed to be spinning out pretty hard after getting his world view repeatedly fact checked and proven repeatedly wrong, but I’m a big fan of treating others the way they want to treat others and this sort of conspiracy theory nonsense is 100% some “bullshit that needs to be thrown back in their faces”

So are you going to engage at all with the material of the conversation or are you just going to spread conspiracy theories because the worldview being expressed isn’t your own?

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The messaging I’m seeing (and assuming that it is what you’re referencing) doesn’t seem to be arguing against “resistance” it’s arguing against “performative resistance”. If you don’t understand the difference between the two I can definitely see why that would come across as demotivating.

Personally that same messaging you are finding demotivating gives me lots of hope in the future as there seems to be an upswelling of desire to actually fix things and coming to terms with the scope and reality of the situation.

It’s bad. The work to fix the last 50+ years of buried/ignored problems is a monumental amount of work, but facing it head on means that we can start making progress instead of just leaving it to pile up further and to get worse.

Hoping this "bot-farm"s perspective helps a bit with the whole “hopeless and helpless” feeling.

What is the argument you are trying to make with repeating that?

Is your argument that was a massive blow to the material holdings of US law enforcement? There are 17,985 police agencies in the US, we’ll pretend they only have one station per agency (that’s a gross underestimate, the Minneapolis 3rd precinct should make that clear…) then 0.000056% of police precincts were burnt down during the protests. I would argue a number that small is negligible.

Is your argument that a burnt down precinct is a form of justice that was achieved? There were ~1200 police killings in 2020. If that is your argument, then only 0.083% of people murdered that year got justice, much less any from previous/subsequent years.

I actually don’t think that’s accurate.

Here’s another source you’re turn, shop around a bit see if you can find anyone who publishes a number that agrees with you. Nobody agrees with your speculation.

We need to talk about unjustified killings.

This is a uniquely American problem. Either ‘Americans are just soooo unbelievably violent and deadly that they must be put down like the rabid dogs they are’ or something else is going on. Please stop insinuating people like George Floyd are rabid dogs that need to be put down.

You could literally do whatever you wanted.

It’s a nice idea, but not how any of that works because we don’t live in anything like a true confederation.

no-trial no-warrant neo-Gestapo

98% of criminal cases in the US already don’t get a trial. If we’re going to talk about the George Floyd protests we should talk about Breanna Taylor and the fraudulent warrant that led to her death.

ICE is something different.

And worse. I agree, but it’s a continuation of, and supported by, the same police you are claiming are “fixed”. ICE cannot operate effectively without direct LEO support.

I’m saying that is an important factor, yes.

Your turn! Point out where what I said is bullshit.

I’m not

“insisting that nothing anyone can do could possibly help and the no one has ever done anything meaningful to resist”

I’m saying that we have the benefit of hindsight now and can look back and see the results of actions taken and determine what tactics were and weren’t effective. If you don’t do that and instead only focus on how much “hard work” was put in instead of the results of the labor you’re going to be constantly wearing yourself out and accomplishing nothing.

I’m begging you to focus less on the “how many people showed up” and focus more on the “what did it accomplish” and update your tactics accordingly.

(pretty rarely) they actually rioted

That’s fair, and you’re right that in my frustration I’m not giving proper credit where credit is due. It was definitely the last time I had hope of things improving somewhat and the bad takes/wrong lessons learned sometimes make me forget that.

they changed the language of policing and basically made it clear that the people wouldn’t tolerate anything other than change and would back it up with direct action.

Some localities did, but largely no. I’m assuming you’re referencing the George Floyd bill, go look at what it actually says.

Yes. Do you remember those walls of names of people who got killed with no particular justice, and notice that the names basically stop in 2020

Police killings in the US have been rapidly increasing since 2020 your anecdotes and what the media chooses to report are not going to be good/accurate reflections of reality.

we’re switching away from the democratic justice system completely and into ICE as the new Gestapo

The US justice system was never democratic, and DHS (ICE as a subsidiary) was explicitly created by Bush Jr. to function that way. I apologize for my frustration and I’m glad you’re finally on board/aware of it but you’re also 25 years late my dude.

DUDE THEY BURNED DOWN THE FUCKING POLICE STATION

You are correct that I am not giving those involved enough credit for that level of bravery and action, but it also wasn’t a consistent trend and with the benefit of foresight we can look back and realize that no police reform came from any of it.

Millions of people were in the streets this past weekend. Is it enough? Fuck no. Did any of them get gunned down by state or city level cops? Or even rubber-bulleted? Not that I’m aware of.

Because they threw a parade instead of a riot. The pro-palestinian protests absolutely did face that level of repression.

The real issue is that you keep contradicting yourself so which is it:

A. the 2020 protests reformed the police and we’re all safe now.

B. We’re entering an era where the already abysmal human rights abuses are about to become far worse.

Motivated people to get off the couch and do what exactly? Other than skulls caved in what was the result? Was there any actual police reform? Was there a massive shift of funding away from incarceration as the cure-all? Have the number of extrajudicial murders decreased?

Yes, I am saying that police militarization has resulted in a populace that is unable/unwilling to revolt in even the slightest of ways since the uncomfortable truth that all Americans live under is that even something as minor, routine and unintentional as speeding can be reason for death. Much less any meaningful/intentional disobedience.

It is a very direct, but often overlooked, reason for a lot of what we are currently seeing today. It shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone as even the US founders knew you can’t have a functioning democracy while staring down the barrel of a gun. That’s what the whole “standing military” thing was about.

As an aside, why are you coming at a “I completely agree, here’s another interesting facet/perspective” comment where you don’t see the connection with such hostility and defensiveness instead of curiosity?

Turns out decades of “stop resisting or you will get shot and it will be your fault” has some real nasty side effects…

I don’t think it is intrinsically wrong to deport someone who has entered the country illegally and a supermajority of Americans agree with that.

Then you believe in a system where you can be sent to a place where there is no appeal process to return.

With that being said I find the American approach to dealing with immigration self-defeating regardless of what the actual goal is.

Agreed!

There is a fundamental difference between the laws in occupied Poland and the United States. There were no judges or appeals processes. Just Party functionaries whose hands needed greasing.

That’s kind of like saying “There were no judges or appeals processes for prisons in 21st century America, there were only plea deals made by law firms whose hands needed greasing.” It’s not functionally wrong, but it is technically and legally laughable.

The appeal process within occupied Poland was that first you needed to appeal to your local Judenräte who would negotiate on your behalf to the German occupation authorities. Except most of the time the individual was left out of the process and it was simply negotiations between the Judenräte and the Occupation authority. They were explicitly setup as judges within a form of lower court to manage these sorts of things and one of their strongest forms of resistance was to aquire documentation (sometimes falsified) in order to get those already within the ghettos to be classified as “mischlinge” and allowed out of the ghetto.

A good tool/exercise for analyzing your (and other’s) beliefs is logic trees, with the goal of taking any complex belief and determined what your core axioms are, being on the lookout for tautologies (God is real -> because the Bible says so -> because God is real…) and axioms that don’t hold up to scrutiny.

If you do the exercise correctly then you should find that most of those “beliefs that can’t be objectively proven or disproven” have belief dependencies that can be objectively (and often easily) proven/disproven.

Haven’t read the book, but the article linked (and a lot of political neuroscience in general) makes it appear the author believes there are only 2 ideologies; liberal and conservative which is itself a wild idealogy… Can anyone who has read it or other work by her confirm/deny that?

Is the argument “getting sent to” or “getting returned from”, 2nd argument is stronger but still a bad definition for the same reasons. The legal argument is that you can’t de-deport someone and it’s the responsibility of the other party to deport them back to the USA if they have been mistakenly deported. That being said maybe said laws and deportations in general are a fucked up concept to begin with?

It was an incredibly corrupt process (like most appeals processes are) but most famously it was the legal mechanism by which Oskar Schindler was able to protect his workers and expand his workforce.

By that definition the Nazi death camps weren’t concentration camps, nor is anything Trump or Biden having done “concentration camps”.

A 5 minute hearing within a detention center does allow for an appeal, and is used by those with enough wealth/privilege/etc. However I suspect that isn’t what you meant, can you expand on that definition?

Edit: I realized there was also another interpretation which is that all jails, detention centers, police vehicles, etc. are concentration camps.