Because unlike my question yours is irrelevant. Whether I’m out every day or not, hell even if everyone is out every day, either way this “no buy day” will still remain entirely non-impactful and entirely self-congratulatory.
We need to spend less time coddling people and trying to massage away their legitimate anxieties and more time focused on having grown up conversations with people like adults about the realities of our situation - even when said reality is starker than a couple warm-fuzzies can solve.
But to answer your whataboutism anyway: daily? No sir. But I have been out in the streets, and I will continue to do. And I will continue to encourage useful collective actions while reminding you that I can only participate in the collective part of collective action, as I am not myself a monolith; critiquing individual efforts is wildly different than critiquing collective organizing effort. But to be clear, feel free to criticize me because unlike defenders of this wasted effort protest I do not believe that the mere goodness of my intentions makes me beyond criticism.
So back to the question posed to you - the suggestion that anything less than full support is the same as opposition is bullshit. First off we’re leftists - we have reason, logic, decency, literally all the immutables on our side - we don’t have to default to ignorance and happy feel good platitudes. Telling people that they’re wasting their efforts, not prohibiting them, isn’t opposition, it’s respecting them enough to talk to them like grown ups instead of placating them like children.
… tell people that they’re wasting their efforts, …
It’s not at all wrong to be realistic about the relative impact of a given effort. Hell, even marching daily isn’t going to be very impactful. Remember Occupy Wall Street? How long did that go on, and who even really things about it now? Did it effect real change? Based on what we see today, I’m going to say no.
Does that make those efforts “wasted”?
The fact is that nothing an specific individual does today is going to have any effect at all, by itself, today. The cumulative efforts of many people, over time, might. Big picture, one person’s marching on their capitol every day is going to have essentially the same effect as participating in this one-day spending freeze.
… feel free to criticize me …
I haven’t. I disagree with the particular tactic you’ve expressed, because, as I said, I think that gatekeeping participation is counterproductive.
So anything less than full endorsement is opposition?
Feel free to point out where I said that. Again, what I think is that telling people who want to get involved in a way they are able to is counterproductive.
First off we’re leftists …
I don’t know who you mean by “we,” and it depends on what your definition of “leftist” is. I’ve seen lots of tankies wearing that name proudly, and fuck them.
… happy feel good platitudes …
I know I’ve said, perhaps not so clearly in this thread, that the efforts one individual makes are unlikely to produce recognizable results any time in the near future. I think that people have been conditioned to expect instant gratification, and I don’t think that’s something that will happen here. No matter what actions you take, you’re highly unlikely to receive any gratification from them in the form of “things are better.” There’s an unhappy feel bad platitude for you.
And I will continue to encourage useful collective actions …
I’m past feeling obligated to keep going around in circles while you try to convince me that just sticking your toes in the water will somehow ever help you cross the English Channel, but I do feel inclined to clarify one point:
… feel free to criticize me …
I haven’t. I disagree with the particular tactic you’ve expressed, because, as I said, I think that gatekeeping participation is counterproductive.
I don’t think you have criticized me and wasn’t trying to claim you have, but I do see how this reads that way. My point was only that good intent doesn’t absolve us from criticism and that I hold myself to that same standard. I do think you were attempting to undermine my point with your whataboutism as if the state of my participation would somehow have any material impact on the substance of my argument, but I don’t think you were outright criticizing me and don’t want you to think that I think that either.
… just sticking your toes in the water will somehow ever help you cross the English Channel, …
Just doesn’t, but you cannot cross the Channel without sticking your toes in it at all. I mean, unless you fly or take a boat or the Chunnel … but if you’re a good swimmer, it’s free.
I’m looking at things like this through the lens of: There are people who want to start doing something. This is something. It’s a start, for someone, maybe a lot - not an end.
I do think you were attempting to undermine my point with your whataboutism as if the state of my participation would somehow have any material impact on the substance of my argument,
I meant that as pointing out that not every effort is suitable for every person. People have to make their own decisions about what risks they are willing to take on, and I think that even a risk that’s closer to inconvenience is better than nothing at all, that it can be the start of something more. More people, more efforts, over more time is the only chance of effecting real change.
We’re probably on the same page that this particular thing for one day is going to have a very limited impact towards ousting fascism from the US or anywhere. Today isn’t the end, and a lot of people have to start small. Let them start.
I’m looking at things like this through the lens of: There are people who want to start doing something. This is something. It’s a start, for someone, maybe a lot - not an end.
It’s not though. It’s the illusion of a start. Hell it doesn’t even encourage collectivism because it is an entirely individual and isolationist protest. You make no connections, you further no interests, you do literally nothing aside from pat yourself on the back for participating in a viral trend.
Yes, no shit you can’t cross the English Channel without getting your feet wet, but dipping your toes in from the shore is never swimming. That the two both take place on the beach does not make them equivalent.
My point remains that we gain nothing by coddling adults like children and telling them they’re doing good works when they aren’t. We’re past playtime; this is grown up time. Either put on your big boy pants and come to the table or shut the fuck up because all you’re (I’m speaking in generalities here, not about “you” personally) doing is muddying the waters and distracting from real efforts and making people feel like they’re already doing the necessary actions that they just simply aren’t.
I’m sorry, but this just feels naive to me. We aren’t in a simple world with clearly defined teams and easily recognizable allies, and not every well-meaning idea towards progress is going to be a good one. We need to be able to discern viable action from not, and we need to remember that the actual opposition wants nothing more than for us to waste on our time on futile efforts so we’re too fatigued to fight the real fight.
I’m sorry, but some of you need to more realistic and more pessimistic.
So anything less than full endorsement is opposition?
People are free to waste their time, but telling them they’re wasting their time is not prohibition from doing so.
I’ll sidestep that question like you sidestepped mine:
Because unlike my question yours is irrelevant. Whether I’m out every day or not, hell even if everyone is out every day, either way this “no buy day” will still remain entirely non-impactful and entirely self-congratulatory.
We need to spend less time coddling people and trying to massage away their legitimate anxieties and more time focused on having grown up conversations with people like adults about the realities of our situation - even when said reality is starker than a couple warm-fuzzies can solve.
But to answer your whataboutism anyway: daily? No sir. But I have been out in the streets, and I will continue to do. And I will continue to encourage useful collective actions while reminding you that I can only participate in the collective part of collective action, as I am not myself a monolith; critiquing individual efforts is wildly different than critiquing collective organizing effort. But to be clear, feel free to criticize me because unlike defenders of this wasted effort protest I do not believe that the mere goodness of my intentions makes me beyond criticism.
So back to the question posed to you - the suggestion that anything less than full support is the same as opposition is bullshit. First off we’re leftists - we have reason, logic, decency, literally all the immutables on our side - we don’t have to default to ignorance and happy feel good platitudes. Telling people that they’re wasting their efforts, not prohibiting them, isn’t opposition, it’s respecting them enough to talk to them like grown ups instead of placating them like children.
It’s not at all wrong to be realistic about the relative impact of a given effort. Hell, even marching daily isn’t going to be very impactful. Remember Occupy Wall Street? How long did that go on, and who even really things about it now? Did it effect real change? Based on what we see today, I’m going to say no.
Does that make those efforts “wasted”?
The fact is that nothing an specific individual does today is going to have any effect at all, by itself, today. The cumulative efforts of many people, over time, might. Big picture, one person’s marching on their capitol every day is going to have essentially the same effect as participating in this one-day spending freeze.
I haven’t. I disagree with the particular tactic you’ve expressed, because, as I said, I think that gatekeeping participation is counterproductive.
Feel free to point out where I said that. Again, what I think is that telling people who want to get involved in a way they are able to is counterproductive.
I don’t know who you mean by “we,” and it depends on what your definition of “leftist” is. I’ve seen lots of tankies wearing that name proudly, and fuck them.
I know I’ve said, perhaps not so clearly in this thread, that the efforts one individual makes are unlikely to produce recognizable results any time in the near future. I think that people have been conditioned to expect instant gratification, and I don’t think that’s something that will happen here. No matter what actions you take, you’re highly unlikely to receive any gratification from them in the form of “things are better.” There’s an unhappy feel bad platitude for you.
I hope you do. All efforts, great and small.
I’m past feeling obligated to keep going around in circles while you try to convince me that just sticking your toes in the water will somehow ever help you cross the English Channel, but I do feel inclined to clarify one point:
I don’t think you have criticized me and wasn’t trying to claim you have, but I do see how this reads that way. My point was only that good intent doesn’t absolve us from criticism and that I hold myself to that same standard. I do think you were attempting to undermine my point with your whataboutism as if the state of my participation would somehow have any material impact on the substance of my argument, but I don’t think you were outright criticizing me and don’t want you to think that I think that either.
Ah –
Just doesn’t, but you cannot cross the Channel without sticking your toes in it at all. I mean, unless you fly or take a boat or the Chunnel … but if you’re a good swimmer, it’s free.
I’m looking at things like this through the lens of: There are people who want to start doing something. This is something. It’s a start, for someone, maybe a lot - not an end.
I meant that as pointing out that not every effort is suitable for every person. People have to make their own decisions about what risks they are willing to take on, and I think that even a risk that’s closer to inconvenience is better than nothing at all, that it can be the start of something more. More people, more efforts, over more time is the only chance of effecting real change.
We’re probably on the same page that this particular thing for one day is going to have a very limited impact towards ousting fascism from the US or anywhere. Today isn’t the end, and a lot of people have to start small. Let them start.
It’s not though. It’s the illusion of a start. Hell it doesn’t even encourage collectivism because it is an entirely individual and isolationist protest. You make no connections, you further no interests, you do literally nothing aside from pat yourself on the back for participating in a viral trend.
Yes, no shit you can’t cross the English Channel without getting your feet wet, but dipping your toes in from the shore is never swimming. That the two both take place on the beach does not make them equivalent.
My point remains that we gain nothing by coddling adults like children and telling them they’re doing good works when they aren’t. We’re past playtime; this is grown up time. Either put on your big boy pants and come to the table or shut the fuck up because all you’re (I’m speaking in generalities here, not about “you” personally) doing is muddying the waters and distracting from real efforts and making people feel like they’re already doing the necessary actions that they just simply aren’t.
If people want to pull in generally the same direction I want, I’m not going to discourage that. Present company included.
I’m sorry, but this just feels naive to me. We aren’t in a simple world with clearly defined teams and easily recognizable allies, and not every well-meaning idea towards progress is going to be a good one. We need to be able to discern viable action from not, and we need to remember that the actual opposition wants nothing more than for us to waste on our time on futile efforts so we’re too fatigued to fight the real fight.
I’m sorry, but some of you need to more realistic and more pessimistic.